After 28 years of a highly visible and equally successful marriage, Bollywood luminaries and Parliamentarians Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi reflect on living, loving and ageing together, as Tanmaya Nanda listens

 
In a constantly shifting world, where allegiances are as slippery as a sheet of ice, stability is inevitably the first casualty. The situation is particularly rife in two areas that dominate Indian life—politics and Bollywood—with the rumour mills churning out one lurid tale after another of fickle alliances. In such a situation, therefore, it is heartening to see an oasis of consistency that is Javed Akhtar and Shabana Azmi, particularly when you consider that they both straddle both politics and Bollywood. Indeed, they are the only couple since Independence where both partners have been nominated to the Rajya Sabha. She served between 1998 and 2003 while he is currently serving out his first term in the Upper House.

To mark the month of love, Harmony-Celebrate Age decided to catch up with this power couple, each of whom is a public figure. We meet at the poolside of the JW Marriott Hotel in Juhu, Mumbai—incidentally on Javed saab’s 66th birthday—where she is dressed in a mint-green sari with a brown-and-gold full-sleeved blouse, even while struggling with waves of pain from a fractured shoulder bone, while he is in a green kurta with turquoise embroidery. The camaraderie between the two is evident as they banter easily—she calls him Jadoo, the name he went by before it was formalised to Javed—and discuss politics and public life. And his almost-impish sense of humour is ever present even during a sometimes trying photo shoot as we struggle against the wind and light. “Behind every successful woman is a man,” he whispers to us as he settles into a chair just behind her, eyes twinkling like an eight year-old who has just said something clever.

You’ve been married for 28 years, almost 30.

Shabana Azmi: Ah, 1984, so yes.

What has kept you together…the secret recipe?

I think it’s something Javed says often enough; he says that Shabana and I are such good friends that even marriage couldn’t ruin our friendship. I think that is the essence of this relationship that we are each other’s best friends.

But if there’s one thing apart from the friendship factor that you could pinpoint, because in India a lot of marriages are not between friends but strangers….

You know you’ll be surprised but once you get married you really are different people than through courtship—unless it’s an extremely long courtship and unless you are living together. Living together is about very mundane, everyday things, so romance is the first thing that goes out of the window. I don’t think we are prepared for what marriage offers. We are told about how marriage is a bed of roses but love and respect for each other and really thinking of yourself as a unit requires a lot of hard work. Because when you are married, you are very, very young. By the time Javed and I got married, though, we were mature people….

How old were you?

I was 33, which was by Indian standards late. And, the thing is that if you have a good marriage, there is nothing more fulfilling in a relationship. I think the real kind of love that exists between the mother and child, that’s a given, but when it’s one of equality, you have to work towards that and give and take on a daily basis. There are no ground rules; it’s flexibility, and certain things that with time will sort themselves out. But love and respect is the basis.

Javed saab, what’s your take? From 1984 to 2102? Raaz kya hai (What’s the secret)?

Javed Akhtar: Dekhiye, raaz nahin hote hain (There are no secrets). To think that there is a formula is perhaps not the right way because every relationship in the world is original and it finds its own balance, compatibility or discord in its own way. But ultimately, common sense says that two people, whether they are spouses, or partners, or friends, or anybody, if two people are interacting they can be happy only by seeing to it that both of them are happy. There is no other way to have a healthy relationship that is at the cost of one person. As long as you accept that you are anyone—and it’s true of anyone and particularly this is something men should not forget—that you are not the star and the other person is not the planet, that the other person has as much right to dream, to ambition, to desire to achieve, to live the way that person wants to live, to have a point of view or opinion about things independent of what you have. And if there is more compatibility than discord, if there is more understanding than misunderstanding, if there is more pleasure than pain, the relationship works. But after everything said and done, there is one thing both of us—both spouses but particularly men—must remember is that any love that boasts of being love but does not offer respect is suspect, at least in my eyes, because then it is a vehicle for exploitation and degradation of the other person. If you love another person, it is not enough that you love that person; you have to respect that person. Respect that person’s individuality, respect the dissension.

How do the two of you resolve your differences, do you let it go for a couple of days or talk it out right away…?

JA: Yes, sometimes we let it go, sometimes we talk it out immediately, and sometimes we don’t ever talk it out, we just let it phase out. What happens many times, when you are irritated you react very strongly to something that is not strong, and you can feel stupid later. So either you can gather some moral courage and apologise; or if you can’t, you hope it will be forgotten and it is, most of the time.

SA: When I look at couples around me, a lot of couples feel it is important to talk it out and let your partner know that you are irritated about this or that or the other. But I think I have drawn from example. My parents had an extremely good marriage…they were both very strong-willed people and they both had their differences and their disagreements. But I realised that my mother had this amazing quality of letting a lot of things go and not making an issue about every single disagreement. I think it’s very important to let it pass and it will sort out. What you need to work out is your non-negotiables. And that is true not just of marriage, for me it’s true of my best friends. So most of the rules I apply to my friends are what I apply to my spouse. The exception being that one can’t… there are no fixed…

He gets a little more leeway…?

SA: No, he doesn’t! In fact, he fights much less than I do. Largely, Javed is a good-tempered person and in good cheer, which is a healthy vibe to have around you.

What are your top non-negotiables for him?

SA: [thinks for a while] No, I don’t think I want to discuss my non-negotiables, that’s too private.

Javed saab, Shabanaji mentioned that the real test is in living together, things become mundane. That living together involves give and take daily, that one of the first things to go out of the window is romance. How have the two of you managed to keep the romance alive?

First, what is the definition of romance? Is romance talking of flowers and rivers and waves and breeze and fragrance and colour? Is that so? A romance is sharing even the so-called most prosaic moments with enthusiasm and interest; even sitting together and eating peanuts, that is romantic. And you can be in a hill station and meadows but if you are not too happy, it’s not romantic at all. Life is romantic if you are interested in each other and then everything you touch, everything you talk about, whether you are discussing tractors, it is romantic.

Both of you are very famous in your own right. What is it like to live with somebody who’s always in the public eye?

SA: Well, the one… I feel largely the perception is that we are very serious, and we are very intellectual and we are only given to very meaningful talk, and you will find that most of the time we are very facetious, talking complete nonsense like everyone else. But one thing, one misconception, let me tell you, a lot of young girls come up to me and say, ‘My God! He is such a romantic poet, he writes such romantic verse, he writes so many romantic songs, how romantic is he in real life?’ and I say, ‘He doesn’t have a single romantic bone in his body.’ Now please ask him why he doesn’t have a romantic bone in his body.

Javed saab?

JA: I don’t agree that I don’t have a single romantic bone in my body [Shabana laughs lightly]. Agar nahin hogi to aap likh bhi nahi sakte romantic poetry (If you don’t have it, how can you write romantic poetry?). But perhaps, you know, it is believed that writers and poets don’t write what they do, they write what they can’t do in their personal life [Shabana laughs again], that they are too shy or too scared or too insecure or whatever, I think that goes in their writing. But allow me to go back a little. When you are talking about non-negotiables. Shabana said it’s too private. I think she thought about it and couldn’t find it so gave that answer. So let me tell you. You see, non-negotiables can only happen in people who have serious differences of morality or aesthetics or basic values of love. I don’t think we have that. So there is nothing that has to be negotiated under the title of ‘non-negotiable’. There was nothing, never. I mean, yes, we have little fights but they are over very, very unimportant issues. But there haven’t been any serious issues between us. Basic issues of morality or choices of life, or what are the attitudes we should take…

SA: [speaking at the same time] Yeah, I think the fact that we have a common worldview….

JA: [continuing] …or that, ‘You are a woman, you should be like this’, or ‘You are a man, you should be like this’ [chuckles], I don’t think for a second. Our differences or fights have been over very unimportant and frivolous and flippant matters.

SA: It’s not a usual marriage; you know you said both of us lead very busy lives. Sometimes, we have not even had time to communicate that we are leaving for the day or something. Now I can imagine that in a lot of marriages that would create a lot of problems. But as part of people who lead very, very busy lives, I think one of the secrets of why we have such a successful marriage is that we meet each other so rarely!

Now, you are both in your 60s, a time when most people are retired or approaching or contemplating retirement. The both of you, on the other hand, have your hands full….

SA: You can say that again!

How do you manage to pack in such a hectic schedule?

JA: I think the energy comes from interest. If you are interested in anything, if you want to do it, it is really not an ordeal, it is a privilege, and it’s a pleasure. But if you are doing things you really don’t want to do, then within 10 minutes you will feel tired. Aur kuch aisa bhi hota hai ki (Sometimes, it so happens that) people like us think, ‘Abhi yahin tak to jaana hai‘ (I only have to go so far), then I will have a comfortable life, then I will not take so many assignments, I will not make so many promises that I will come here or go there, then I will have a slower tempo of life, ‘bas abhi tak ye kar lete hain’ (let me just get this done first). But by the time one has reached there, again you have a long list of commitments. So, sometimes I keep thinking that but so far it has not happened.

Have you ever contemplated retiring, giving it all up?

JA: No, no, no. Because I don’t think I have done enough. And I’m not saying this because it’s a nice thing to say, ‘Dekho ye kitte humble hain, kitte modest hain’ (Look how humble and modest he is)…aisa kuch nahin (nothing like that) but because I genuinely feel there is so much to do and it is within my reach. I can do it, I should do it. So once I have this feeling that I have done enough or I have done whatever I could, I may think, but it’s not at least in the near horizon.

SA: I can’t think of retirement but what I want to do and create time for is to teach. I think I have benefited a lot because of the teachers I had in Roshan Taneja and others. I am a firm believer in training and I wish I could create the time to teach young, aspiring actors.

But what would you say to our readers, is it too late for them to restart a new life. Is there such a thing?

JA: I’ll start from another point. You’ve been working and now you are free of all the responsibilities; now look for your pleasure, your happiness. Think what you really wanted to do or what you would have rather done given a choice. Do it now! And do it wholeheartedly. Don’t think it is late.

SA: For me, the biggest example in my life is my father. He suffered a brain haemorrhage and his left arm and left leg were incapacitated for life and he had a stroke when he was just 53-54 years old. Instead of giving in to despair, he actu-ally single-handedly went back to Mijwan, the village of his birth and started working for the upliftment of the village, and did it till his dying day. So we have living examples like that around, so I don’t think so. But also what I think is very important is to embrace age positively. And particularly in our profession, it is very difficult because there is this constant struggle to look younger, to feel younger, to behave younger. So what I’m saying is don’t get into that struggle, just embrace whatever age you are…because at 61, which I am today, I embrace that, and Javed embraces that, because all his wisdom comes from the experiences, having lived a full life, and I think it’s important to continue to have life as your base.

Do you think there is enough for senior citizens to engage and fill their lives with after retirement?

JA: No, not at all. As a matter of fact, our society is not considerate at all to the needs and requirements of senior citizens. You don’t have facilities in trains and public places for senior citizens for even to climb up properly, or even ramps for wheelchairs. I don’t think we are very sensitive.

SA: Well, I think it’s a strange contradiction because, on the one hand, we revere our senior people. But what we do is we revere them and sort of bring them out on occasions…but the general attitude in society is, ‘Wo budhay ho gaye hain, unko ghar pe rehne do’ (They have aged, let them stay home). I think that is the responsibility of us as a society to make it possible for our seniors to enjoy life as actively as they can. Even when I go into the multiplexes, I worry all the time because there are granite floors and an old person can slip. It is increasingly a society that is aiming only towards the young and I think we are making a huge mistake. For example, if we are going to change home, we will say ‘Child ka school ka kya hoga, child ka neighbourhood ka kya hoga’ (What will happen to the child’s school, its neighbourhood) but when it’s with our parents, we’ve just decided we are going to a better place. What is going to happen to their support group; how important is it to include their voices in the decision-making process? That is what we, as a society, need to commit ourselves to. A time comes when you don’t even feel it is necessary to tell them where you are and you come to know from the staff that these people have gone. It’s terrible, it’s terrible.

JA: I find that we need to find some acceptability for senior citizens; they have retired, they have ample free time, but they don’t know what to do with their time. We have to think as a society about what we are offering to this segment, saying, ‘That is how you can use your time.’ The answer is that we have not done it. Collectively, as a society, I don’t think there is any plan, any thought about it. Gradually, they start losing self-esteem, they feel they have no utility and that brings depression and inferiority that make life very unpleasant for them. What are we doing? I don’t have any readymade answer but I have a question.

Looking back over your 28 years together, is there anything both of you would want to do differently now?

JA: This is interesting. This is a question I have confronted earlier also; not for 28 years but for all of my 66….

… I’ll stick to the 28 years!

JA: No, no, it doesn’t matter. Ultimately, the answer will remain the same. Are you happy with your today? If you are happy with your today, this is the package that comes to you. The moment you change Scene No. 26, which is a bad scene, Scene No. 36 or 38, which is the highlight of the story, will also go away. So this is the package that is offered to you. Want it? You can only decide if you are happy at present. I am happy. So I don’t want to make any changes. Why should I? Because then everything will change!

SA: That’s such a good answer that I’d like to say, ‘Ditto’.

Photo: Vilas Kalgutker
Featured in Harmony — Celebrate Age Magazine
February 2012